Dear grinder manufacturers

June 15th, 2011

I have many frustrations with grinders but I am not planning on rehashing old posts.

There had been something else on my mind of late that is causing me increasing anger and frustration and that is grinder burrs.

It has always been a vague annoyance but recent experiences with one manufacturer’s conical burrs has pushed me to a point where I have to say something, and I hope you’ll join me in saying something too with a little petition.

Grinder burrs should not require seasoning. The fact that the cutting edges are not clean and smooth, and take between 5 and 25 kilos of coffee to act as intended, is unacceptable. They are selling an unfinished product and leaving it to those of us who care enough to bother to maintain the equipment to pick up the bill for getting them up to spec.

This is ludicrous. If you had to pull 100 shots before new dispersion screens worked properly then you’d probably stop buying that brand.

If we say nothing then nothing changes. I am sure it is possible for manufacturers to season burrs and sell them in a suitable condition. I am sure it would cost less than each of us dealing with it. (The set for my Uber grinder were preseasoned.) If we make it a priority for them then it will happen but it needs more than one grumpy, fussy, difficult geek to effect change.

I am sure some people will probably explain why this problem has never been addressed. I am sure there are excuses, challenges and problems. I’m more interested in solutions and improvements.

Do please sign below if you agree with me.
(Your name will only appear if you verify via email.)

Attn: Grinder Manufacturers

It is, in our opinion, unacceptable to continue to sell burrs that are not adequately finished, and are unable to attain optimum grinding without "seasoning" the burrs.

We would like to see your processing changed so that all burrs sold are suitable for immediate use.

Name:

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Simon Glover,
unacceptable

Rich nieto,

Marc Shubitz,

xxxxxxxx,
Cooolio

Johnny Kemnitz,

paul seo,
i strongly agree

Jordi G.,
thanks for your attention

Adam Lowes,

Robert Merriam,

Michael Teahan,
Mahlkonig uses a steel that last over 1000 kilos and requires little or no break in period. Ceramics mills have similar lifespans with little change in grind quality over time, though they aren't great to begin with. New long life, food friendly mills from Italy are similar to the K8 steel used by Mahlkonig and Ditting without having buy a new grinder.

Some mills are deburred, but people company they aren't very sharp.

The mills are available, you just have to pay for the privilege. You can get these mills for Mahlkonig, Mazzer and Rossi grinders right now and Robur mills are in the pipeline.

Ponganes Espresso,Thailand,
Absolutely agree with.I 've had this problem with Robur E and I never knew before.That make us waste the time,money,frindship.

Charles Stewart,

xxxxxxxx,
Totally agree

angel Kyodo williams,
The paradox is you will sell more burr grinders as a result of making them more accessible. We love our coffee. We love it done well and will obsess to make it right. We don't, however, wish to obsess over grinders.

Seth Taylor,

Muhammad Abgari,

Brian Birdy,
Very valid request.

Nicholas Frith,

Gabriel Tan,
Having 4 Mazzers in a very busy shop means changing them every so often which require shitloads of coffee... stale or not. Too expensive and exercise. I second your emotion!!

Jeff Gershik,

Rich Mattis,

John Hancock,

Rachel,
Thank you! I was very frustrated yesterday during a busy morning due to an "extended" seasoning process!

brie kenoyer,
the cost of pulling hundreds of shots, wasting valuable espresso, customer time, and barista wages is a huge waste. I look forward to only purchasing pre-seasoned burrs, and leaving subpar manufacturers behind.

Linda Siefker,
TY

Jiri Sladek,

Brady MacDonald,
Build better burrs! please

Trevor Hyam,

Kevin Evans,

James Weeks,

Drew Fitchette,
fight the proverbial power

Isabella Silver,

Nik Virrey,
I stand in full agreement. Find the solution.

Wayne Oberholzer,

Roeland Lenaerts,

Sarah Dooley,

aaron dibben,

John Letoto,

Michael Walcher,

Kalle Freese,

Mark Pienkowski,

Michael Gregory,

Logan Gray,

Will Frith,

David Pickering,

Christoph Darjanto,
Make grinder with self-cleaning system

Ryan Soeder,

Trevor Green,

Terry,

Astro Ongjoco,

Stefan Hersh,

Frank Freeman,

Ian Holiday,

Robin,

Bailey Manson,

David Flynn,
yes.

Zachary Carlsen,
Yes, please.

Polina Vladimirova,

Scott Crispo,
grinders need to up there game all around.

Brian Thayer,

Jesse Kahn,

Preston Peachey,

Kate Blackman,
It's terrible to waste so much and worse to serve it. The bar loses and the customer loses.

Matt Banbury,
Its pointless to waste good product (already as scarcity) on getting these machines to operational standard.

Luke Mutton,
I don't buy a car and have to run 1000 liters of petrol through the engine before the car drives probably.. It's ready when I buy it. Imagine taking a new Mazda 3 for a test drive and it only reaches 60km/h. Salesman: "it's okay, once the engine pistons wear in after awhile, it'll go faster"

Ed Bourgeois,

Stuart Wilkinson,

Brady Butler,

Doddy Samsura,

Aaron Duckworth,

Shaun Parrish,

Jesse Gordon,

Logan Potts,
In seasoning our Robur we wasted 50 lbs to get it seasoned. 50 lbs of coffee that took many many hours and hands to process. Would you mind picking up the tab mazzer?

Jason Dominy,
Amen.

Lorenzo Perkins,
For the cost of the burrs alone this is a worthy petition, let alone the cost of the cost of the grinder. Too much money to put up with inadequate performance.

Rachel Lehman,
Amen!

Tamar White,

Bluecold,
I will probably never need new burrs as I'm just a home user with a 68mm conical, however, I do feel for the cafe owners that have to burn through ridiculous amounts of coffee.

Nikolas Krankl,

Ed Benton,

clancy cramer,

Mark Lowes,
We change our Robur burrs every 6 weeks in our high volume cafe. Ridiculous expense to our business - we run nearly thirty kilos through each new set before they settle down. Crazy.

Rachel Haughey,

nicolas kypreos,

Ryan Toleman,

Alistair Durie,

Eric J. Schwarzenbach,

Michael Empacher,

René Macaulay,

Jason Scheltus,

Hallie Rose Taylor,

Benza Lance,
WORD.

charles Lambert,

david evans,
after 200 lbs of coffee I was advised that it might take 5 or 10 pounds to make them work properly. Machine not fit for my bar.

Kevin Cheng,

Jacob Landrau,

Joao N M D Almeida,

Jasper Overdevest,

Cristian Girón,

kyle tush,

Adam McGovern,

Andrew Cunningham,

matt lynch,

Sam Sgambellone,

Paul Asquith,
Absolutely! This has always been a problem. I constantly tell customers that it might take a week or more for their grinder to come good. Would be nice to install, train and have something ready to go!

Sam Little,

Nathanael Mehrens,
thanks, jim, for giving us a way to do this.

Lynsey Harley,

tim marriage,

Luke Byrne-Perkins,

Tim Van Dragt,
I don't hand the milk pitcher to my customers and tell them to pour their own latte. Why do you expect me to finish your job for you lot (burr manufacturers)?

David Figdor,

Jan Freudenthal,

Matt Troughton,

Nate Eakman,

Jordan Barber,

Micah Metheny,

Jamie,

Joshua Lindstrom,

Scott Witham,

Meg Passarell,

Tim Varney,

Raimond Feil,

Jonathan wadham,

David Leong,

Michael Widmann,

Scott Luengen,

Robert Goble,

Philip Pollen,

Alex Negranza,

Hunt Slade,

Alex Goforth,

mark wain,

R. Justin Shepherd,

Daniel Williamson,

Johan Larsson,

Luke barrett,
James, you have just summed up my entire week. Excitement about new gridner quickly turning to frustration with inconsistent results... Not cool.

Toshi Yamaguchi,

Richard Park,

Patrick Smith,

Cameron Crichton,
damn right

Cory Andreen,

Luis Rodriguez,

David Donde,
It is high time the grinder industry started taking speciality coffee seriously.

Davide Birse,

Francis Clark,

Olaf Draeger,

Ronald Ngo,

Mart Roosimagi,

Sam Carey,

Sam Keck,
had endless trouble with a particular brand after replacing old burrs - not exactly time well spent in a busy cafe

Troy Mallett,
In every other industry an unfinished product is unacceptable. What do you think would happen if you were at a restaurant and your chicken was not completely cooked?

Daniel Faucette,

Jered Marrington,

Aaron Hall,

Laura Perry,
Tested 10 new conical burrs a couple days ago, and 8 were deffective. Lots of hours spent and lots of wasted coffee. Would love to see more care on the manufacturers part to actually test burrs or at least approve them prior to shipment to a distributor. With 13 (and counting!) To maintain, this is very relevant to my job.

James Hill,
very timely! received burrs today for ditting 804 and will now have to season them - but it's even worse. i'ts just me and my wife drinking coffee! long time to go...and where do we get 25 kg of beans!!!

Nathanael May,

Ryan Willbur,

Caytie Hudgins,

Stephen Dozier,

Kevin Lionais,

James Andrews,

Howard Barwick,

Eric Zuniga,

Michael mc laughlin,

Paul Stack,

Kris Rosentrater,

Charlie,

aaron ultimo,

Colin Harmon,

James Phillips,
I'm currently testing a couple of new grinders out and it is driving me nuts figuring out how much/if I need to season the burrs on each different one. Just imagine if they came ready to rock?

Jason Haeger,
It's about time this has been addressed!

Michael Burke,

Matija Hrkac,

Andreas Martinu,

Stephen Frame,

Jesse Crouse,

Melody Lu,

Timothy I. Houghton,

Brian Ludviksen,

Charlie Powell,

Mateusz Kubik,

Franciszek Ambroziewicz,

Nik Orosi,

Sarah McLeod,

Sebastian Lösch,

Angus Lindsay,

John Hauxwell,

Anthony Horter,
I see it as basically an unfinished product.The manufacturers are very proud to inform you of how much each burr set can grind, but neglect to inform how much is frustratingly ground before the burrs are within working spec.

Nick Nestoros,

Jeremy Hogan,

Mihai Panfil,

Nicholas Kohout,
Will encounter this in a few weeks; not looking forward to conditioning a new burr set.

Neil Oney,

Karin Sternberg,

Mike Mierzejewski,

Gethin Lynes,

Kevin McConnell,

David Seng,

Ian Callahan,

Ben Toovey,

Andrew Barnett,
Jim's eloquently express the frustrations of many of our colleagues.

Aaron Wood,

Mark ambrosini,

Mike Marquard,

Steve Lee,

Chandler Rentz,

Eric Valdivia,

Tom Ailor,

Anneliese Martinu,

Andrew Tolley,

Gwilym Davies,

Ben Whitaker,
Completely Agree!

Tibor Varady,

Caty Rent,

Callum Hale Thomson,

Jeremy Williamson,

Caspar Steel,
Somebody from Ditting told me about using rice to season/clean grinders?

Gary Mc Gann,

Mark Prince,

Ben Townsend,

Dominik Janda,

Paul Bonna,

Ian Clark,

Marton Tömpe,

Renato Correia,
PS... While you at it, pls redesign the entire grinder for more consistent results...

Simon St-Pierre,

Paul Radin,

Peter Van de Reep,

Michael Bates,

Brett Lanyon,

Bronwen Serna,

Michael Vaclav,
I agree

Brett Felchner,
Great post James

François Knopes,

Stefan A. Engelien,

Alexander Ruas,

xxxxxxxx,

Maxwell Colonna-Dashwood,

Friso van der Mei,
No More "rice" :-)

xxxxxxxx,

xxxxxxxx,

Karl Purdy,
James, you are grumpy but I love it & concur!

Radoslav Plešinac,

Jonathan Aldrich,

xxxxxxxx,
Customer just had major issues with an unseasoned Robur.

Mike Hartnett,

Matt Milletto,

Alexander MacIntyre,

Rowland Crawte,

Keith O\'Sullivan,

Christopher Scheirer,
Amen!

Scott Lucey,

Chris Birkett,

Carlos Ferrer,

Edmund Buston,
This is a start and then let's experiment with burrs. IMO uniform grind size = uniform extraction, prove me wrong please.

Chris Capell,

ALBERT SOTO,

Alex Bernson,

Victor Frankowski,

Chad Little,
"Jepy" help us all.

Bill tahtis,

Wille Yli-Luoma,

Todd Campbell,

Chris Owens,
Seriously!

Jason Calhoon,

Gary Whiteley,

Shawn Person,

Will Corby,

Tim Logan,
Long overdue.

Rune Johannesen,

Jeff Hoeppner,

John Martin,

Stephen Heller-Murphy,

Josh Hockin,

Jacob Orr,

Martin Pearson,

Anthony Rue,

Kyle Glanville,

Aaron Braun,

David Robson,

Jackson O\'Brien,

Klaus Thomsen,
Agreed!
Just changed the burrs on two of our Mazzer Roburs today and it's simply SO frustrating to have to grind kilo after kilo of coffee through before it's any good.
There's a huge gab in the market for new burr sets. Where are the experimental burrs? The VST baskets of the Burr Set? C'mon already!

Ryan Wanslow,

Collin Moody,

James Hoffmann,

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  • Jay C.

    Sounds like you’re talking about the Mazzer series of grinders, particularly the Robur-E (since it is the “darling” of 3W baristas).

    While I like the notion of “the petition” I suspect it’s really going to go nowhere.  Mazzer has historically thumbed their noses at those calling for change because they can.  Regardless of the clamor, baristas still choose to champion their grinders and buying them en masse.  

    Perhaps the petition ought to go out to the barista community to BOYCOTT the grinder manufacturer rather than a petition saying “please make these changes.”  Hit them where it counts – in their revenue stream and their reputation.  Support and encourage the “secondary” grinder manufacturers who make a product deserving of better recognition (I’m looking at Compak here).

    However, if you continue to do “business as usual” even while signing the petition, it’s unlikely these manufacturers will ever change.

    • Alex B

      While I can’t really speak on Mazzer respecting or dis-respecting the barista community, I think it is somewhat ludicrous to talk about supporting Compak as more deserving of respect from the community.

      As just one example, the Compak K6 “Pro Barista” floats +/- 2 seconds when you adjust the burrs, i.e. you set it and then get to guess which direction it is going to settle into once you actually grind. Marketing such as machine as a “pro barista” model demonstrates a distressingly lack of understanding of the community’s needs.

      I’d much rather try and constructively work on the burr issue with a company (Mazzer) that makes a product that is otherwise significantly above others and accurately reflects the needs of the pro barista over a company that while they may or may not be “friendly” makes a rather inferior product that flies rather directly in the face of the community’s needs. (yes, I know the k6 is not top of the line, but marketing it as “pro barista” suggests that it should be evaluated based on the professional’s needs, no?)

      As a side note, in terms of agitating for specific change, manufacturers are rather more likely to make the specific product changes desired when they are told directly what they are, as opposed to having to try to interpret the desires of the community by proxy due to a general boycott.

    • http://www.jimseven.com James Hoffmann

      I don’t think a boycott is really the way to go because I am not sure if there is any grinder readily available that is as good as it could/should be.

      I do think that a little coherent complaining could be helpful.  I’d like to get 1,000 names on the list and then to send it to manufacturers and see what their response is.  

      For a long time I just assumed that it was normal to season burrs.  Inevitable.  The more I think about this stuff, the more I get annoyed that we’ve just let this stuff go.  Hopefully by bring it to people’s attention we can get a sufficient mass of people to try to effect a little change.

      Here’s hoping anyway…..

      • Jay C.

        I think it goes back to simple (and in this case, I do mean “very simplified”) economics.  A company such as Mazzer is both disinterested and less inclined to do anything.  They make a product and they sell so many units around the world that they don’t have to worry about “getting the word out.”  

        A great example of this is the WBC Grinder Sponsorship – Mazzer couldn’t give two clicks about sponsoring the WBC.  I mean really, what does WBC sponsorship offer Mazzer?  The opportunity to be exposed as a “great” grinder to baristas?  Greater exposure and market penetration?  

        The first is handled well by baristas such as yourselves who tout Mazzer as “the best” grinders – despite the ridiculous cost, extreme weight and negligible grind quality over grinders like the Compak K10 WBC (never used the K6, just like I’d never use the SuperJolly in a production environment).  The second? They already own.

        Instead, more progress may be made by bringing the plight to “secondary” grinder manufacturers, like Compak and/or Mahlkonig – companies with market share and in-roads to gain.  Companies that may be open to progressive thinking and innovations.

        A company such as Mazzer deals with a tremendous volume and, for them, to make changes or new models really means that they want to see a significant ROI.  A smaller, innovative company can make changes more readily without the demand for such volume and ROI.

        The other part really goes back to just how many units they can expect to sell?  Does 1,000 signatures on a petition truly translate into 1,000 people who are going to plunk down cash for one, two or three grinders – regardless of cost?  

        Grinder companies, over the time I have been in coffee, seem to make incremental changes to their designs rather than completely new units.  This is keep their R&D and production costs at a controllable level (I presume).  Even if a company were to debut the “ultimate” grinder, how many of you are going to replace your grinders?  My company runs six grinders on any given day – am I going to spend US$21,000 replacing them (presuming a US$3,500 cost per unit)?  I really don’t think so.

        With regards to Alex B’s comments on the K6, I can’t speak to them as I don’t have experience with the K6.  My experience is limited to the 2006 K10, 2010 K10WBC, 2009 K10WBC Doserless and a little play with the 2011 K10Doserless.  I can only presume that the K6 is about the equivalent to a SuperJolly, which I don’t like to use in a production environment.

        • http://www.jimseven.com James Hoffmann

          I think you misunderstand – this post is not about a new grinder, or R&D.  This is simply about finishing burrs properly so that they work as desired immediately.  This is not a crazy request.  This would be relatively easy to implement at scale without massive increases in cost.

        • Melody Lu

          I wouldn’t be quick to say Mazzer doesn’t care, in fact it probably applies to any manufacturer. Sure they have a strong market power, but if such market share has an outcry it also shouldn’t be negligible.

          This is going on a tangent here, but by foregoing sponsorship a company gives up an opportunity to market itself. Does greater exposure necessarily correlate to greater product quality? Does endorsement necessarily align with the business interests of each group? Ever think of the fact that Nespresso is the major sponsor of WBC seem amusing?

          I’d say marketing is important for branding, yet it’s not the top priority of a truly good manufacturer who should be doing what they’re supposed to do well. I’d opt for a petition as a plea of the mass, that’ll carry more weight than a single request.

          It’s not really asking for something groudbreaking, maybe at some point a recalibration on manufacture line on burrs that one could call marginal improvements, or at least, a good after-sales service by preseason burrs for you.

    • Stateyournamehere

      Jay,

      I have always shard you views on the WBC K10, it is not without its faults but it is by far my favorite grinder. I wish compak would lisent to baristas again and make a proper doserless grinder.

    • Stateyournamehere

      Jay,

      I have always shard you views on the WBC K10, it is not without its faults but it is by far my favorite grinder. I wish compak would lisent to baristas again and make a proper doserless grinder.

  • Alistair

    Dream on, Mazzer don’t care. Why should they?

    • http://twitter.com/Kaffeekommune Paul Bonna

      because it is a simple economic decision. Few companies are innovators; so when they decide to introduce a new, better produkt for example because of an increasing demand, there are two possibilities; 1). They can fail or 2). make a big deal. 
      I guess the innovator inside of grinder manufacturer will generate higher value, so the “followers” will decide to do the same to get more of the cake, called market share.
      This petition symbolises in some way the customer demand and of course it is possible to make change happen. 

    • http://twitter.com/Kaffeekommune Paul Bonna

      because it is a simple economic decision. Few companies are innovators; so when they decide to introduce a new, better produkt for example because of an increasing demand, there are two possibilities; 1). They can fail or 2). make a big deal. 
      I guess the innovator inside of grinder manufacturer will generate higher value, so the “followers” will decide to do the same to get more of the cake, called market share.
      This petition symbolises in some way the customer demand and of course it is possible to make change happen. 

  • Bluecold

    Call Italmill. They make a large part of all the burrs used in grinders. 
    http://www.italmill.it/
    Most grinder manufacturers don’t make their own burrs. 
    AFAIK, only Bunn, Mahlkonig and Mazzer do so.

  • James P

    I’d happily pay an extra couple of squids for the ‘option’ of pre-seasoned burrs. It’s gonna cost money one way of the other so why not pay them to do it with some sh*tty robusta or something? What roaster is going to keep 20-odd kg about of a dud batch for the next account that may happen to buy a R**ur?

  • Charlie

    as you say 5-25kg of coffee has to be ground, i dont want to think how much that costs

  • Clueless Newbie

    Newbie question: Why exactly is seasoning burr sets required?

    • James P

      When you cut metal, you end-up with (confusingly) ‘burred edges’ -think cutting a metal pipe with a hacksaw. If you were to look at them under magnification, you’d see lots of nasty sharp and very thin edges- these need to be ground down so the burr edges are all a consistent sharpness that will produce an even particle size and will change only slowly, over time. If you just use them out of the box, you get wildly fluctuating grind sizes as the burrs on your burrs wear down.

  • Yara

    Just wondering, were the K30s given to each WBC competitor in Bogota by Mahlkoeing seasoned or not? Christian, Jorg, anyone?

    • Christian

      For all their espresso discs MAHLKÖNIG and Ditting use a special alloy that has a higher resistency against abrasion. It has a slightly higher content of tungsten/wolfram. Using this alloy we could optimise the typical running-in changes (grind speed, average grind size, particle size distribution).
      The “Überburr” in the Übergrinder for Marco is seasoned (artificially aged) by glas pearl blasting to take off the burred edges (see James P post above) and it is titanium coated for higher consistency over life time. These discs were developed for filter+friends exclusively with only one particle size (no fines).

  • David Evans

    The RoburE has other problems, too.
    While I was in Bogota my staff took the machine off-line and replaced it with the Anfim we had been using for decaf.  I spent a lot of money on the Mazzer and am very disappointed with it. 
    To make matters worse – and this is completely my fault – in a fit of pique I was hastily trying to clean the burrs/chute and put it back together and I cross-threaded it… How many times have I cleaned a grinder and I cross thread this new one with less than 12,000 shots on it.
    Not happy with them and not happy with me.  Alas…

  • http://twitter.com/EdwardBenton EdwardBenton

    First thing I did after purchasing my mazzer mini was to make my way through several kilos of cheap and nasty coffee. A local indoor golf store who also do coffee gave me 10 kilos of segafredo free of charge.

    Then some urnex grindz.

    Then some real coffee.

    Vast improvement.

    Signed.

  • Pingback: Mazzer Grinders and Burrs… « R. Willbur

  • Paul Haworth

    The solution is simple. A third party manufacturer needs to start producing burrs that are pre-seasoned. Anyone who knows anyone with a machine shop can plant this bug. All the third party manufacturer needs to do is build the burrs, install them in their own grinder and burn through coffee until they are working properly. Healthy competition will get Mazzer’s attention. They might even be able to be more competitively priced. We just bought three sets for our Roburs. A decent investment.

  • http://twitter.com/Stinklington Stinklington

    What about running a few kilos of brown rice through it first: would that help?