Comments on: Video 3 – Espresso Vs Espresso

By: Tim Burstow

Tim Burstow — Wed, 14 Apr 2010 01:59:10 +0000

What is your point of reference for starting with any given coffee being brewed in espresso? Its all well and good to rid ourselves of previous or current expectations, but once they are gone and we have a clean slate, where do you start at the roaster, where do you start at the grinder, where do you start at the machine? My own bent would be to try expressing the coffee by changing the variables of roasting and grinding etc… That being said, it could taste great as each variable is changed. As a cafe owner, how do you translate that to your customers who want concrete help on having better coffee at home. Even square mile has taste descriptions that already prompts me to target those tastes. So are you saying we should give some type of expectation to the people buying our coffee? Though I wouldn’t know half of my customers espresso prep techniques at home. Should we see more espresso coffees offered with brew techniques and why we like it that way? It seems that people are really experiencing the flavour of their espresso prep technique rather than the coffee flavour. What advice or tips do you recommend for wanting to make great espresso without becoming locked into expectations? Obviously my knowledge of roasting and preparation of espresso is limited.

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By: David Walsh

David Walsh — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 09:44:04 +0000

Only noticed this reply now, jeez it’s hard to keep up with the pace of comments here (a good complaint).

I’d say the only flavours intrinsic to the coffee are the ones you get when you put the bean in your mouth and chew. With all brews you are extracting a portion of that. We have innumerable ways to brew what we broadly all “filter” coffee that can all approach the same type of extraction from a bean, why try and make one brew method that inherently produces a different result like all the others?

I totally see your point about all this, but I do think it’s a case of shoe-horning espresso into our filter palate.

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By: Gabriel

Gabriel — Thu, 16 Jul 2009 22:23:48 +0000

I unequivocally see myself in the process camp. nothing is ever for certain in coffee, so long as it’s delicious I am game.

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By: rob berghmans

rob berghmans — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 23:00:49 +0000

I became a coffee professional because I missed ‘good’ espresso’s in Antwerp. Other coffee brewing systems never appealed me before.
These days I’m trying day and night to lift up my (aero) press, filter and cupping quality, but still experiencing way better and deeper tastes in my espresso’s. I adore them all, but the ‘kick’ of a good espresso, So or Blended, is not comparable to other coffee drinks.
And now we have our clients addicted to this (espresso)stuff, they have also problems enjoying ‘lighter’ drinks. On an almost daily basis we serve free Eva Solo’s and Press brewed Single Origin Coffee’s at the bar, but the reactions are never so positive as with clean espresso shots – always adviced to stir really well before drinking.

We’ll see where it will get us, but I don’t think espresso is going to lose it’s popularity in the next decade.

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By: Hunt Slade

Hunt Slade — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 23:08:57 +0000

James, as usual, your comments are an ever present source of contention and discourse in our shop. Our crew is made of traditionalists and third-wave devotees alike, and the I often wonder if I am whole-heartedly one or the other. We press or vac all of our drip and always have. I had to fight off some of the early crew to avoid speed of production vs quality by going mechanical in the past, and eventually got a La Marz. and how the floodgates opened again. Since then, we have had spro blends with and sans robusta, SOs aplenty and even played with Liberica in various preps. We have found that outside of the presence of defects, we can enjoy every single bean in the house, in any combination, in any prep style we employ. That seems like a good track to be on, seeing how our clientèle have made this journey along with us, even to the point that they do not get stuffy if we do not have a preferred bean on the floor – it just provides an opportunity for something entirely new for them which they are glad to have.

What amazes me is the stiffness I still find in myself from time to time during your videos or blogs. I don’t get it. I accept that what I “know” now, I will very likely disagree with two years from now, but that something still gets riled up when removing crema or a topic of coffee semantics is breeched baffles me. Thanks you for your adventurous spirit and commitment to pressing on. You and your group of friends push us to let the coffee be better. Cheers.

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By: Lance

Lance — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 19:45:31 +0000

I think the point Gwilym made summed most things up regarding espresso. Some look at he science of it, some study the origins and what they bring, some folk have drunk too many 100% arabica coffees that they cannot get their heads around robusta. Espresso is also defined by the situation and when your drinking it. With fellow Barisiti like wine tasters we may discuss the finer points on the opposite end of the scale the romance of drinking an espresso in Venice can delight. Rather like going to a wine tasting to drink wine or going to The Fat Duck for dinner and have a fine bottle of wine. You are right James its what you make it. As for espresso machines I like the challenge of differing coffee standards. Its what makes us want to constantly re visit a machine to tinker.
Enjoying the vedeo blogs!!!!!!!!

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By: James Hoffmann

James Hoffmann — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 12:18:19 +0000

I don’t think we should necessarily expect or want an espresso machine to deliver the flavours we get from a filter brew.

Why not? If those are the flavours that are intrinsic to the coffee then why wouldn’t we want them. We might want them in a more condensed/intensive form that filter brewing, with different emphasis on certain characteristics but ultimately I want my espresso to taste as little of the barista (or machine certainly) as possible!

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By: James Hoffmann

James Hoffmann — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 12:16:38 +0000

Espresso, or awesome espresso is an elusive beast and those of us who spend our days and our fortunes pursuing it will testify that it is not just an end-product produced within a rigid set of parameters to produce a drink that is described by absolutes, it is something you strive to produce and dedicate a great deal of energy to, observing many variables, controlling those you can and mitigating the others on a journey to get something nice, or even interesting, from whatever coffee goes into the grinder.

I think espresso is particularly alluring to those of us behind a great espresso machine because its elusive nature means that we are as thrilled by the chase as we are by the capture. One could argue that, from the other side of the counter, we really shouldn’t be trying to sell and charge so much for something that is so hit and miss. (I know that isn’t really a fair argument, but you get what I mean).

I love making espresso (most days), and I worry that I sometimes I enjoy making it more than drinking it. But then I am sure there are lots of chefs who love cooking certain dishes more than they will ever enjoy eating them.

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By: John Gordon

John Gordon — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 20:59:57 +0000

Not sure what camp im in. For me espresso is the infinite challenge that i love so much and thats what got me into coffee in the first place, so when it comes to espresso it’s not about the so called GOD shot it’s about challenging myself every time i step behind a machine.

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By: dergitarrist

dergitarrist — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:46:18 +0000

I admire your honesty and clarity of thought… you utter what I, and I suppose, some others have been thinking for a long time in your first video and this one and you are apparently not afraid of upsetting large parts of the communities you spend so much time in. Even though I have had similar thoughts I usually tend to blame my possibly underdeveloped sense of taste for my judgement that disagrees so much with the predominant public discourse.
Just a single little point you’re missing with this one, in my opinion, though: While espresso clearly was conceived as a quick way of brewing fresh drinks, it has evolved from that to a coffee specialty. It is certainly not the best way of transporting the taste from the coffee bean into the cup without much alteration thus merely liquefying the solid of the beans and ground. But what it does has become so important that the process now has it’s own status that people value. The taste that an espresso machine can extract from the right miscela and roast is something you can really love even though it’s not an accurate depiction of the beans.. if you want, you can think of the French Press as a more naturalistic or photographic way of creating a picture while an espresso machine would be a late Picasso or… I don’t know, Fusion Jazz.

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