Comments on: The wine model doesn’t work

By: Robert McIntosh (thirstforwine)

Robert McIntosh (thirstforwine) — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 12:29:47 +0000

Wow, your blog is a great discovery for me. I need to read his thread and all the great comments in a lot more detail, but I had just started exploring this from exactly the opposite direction to try and make sense of coffee with a wine background.

I think I might disagree with your conclusions above, partly because they overstate the strength of customer recognition and appreciation for wine, but I look forward to thinking this through and sharing it with the coffee world too

By: James Hoffmann

James Hoffmann — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:28:03 +0000

Hey Steve – I think we all think a lot of the same thoughts. I linked back to you because you wrote a really interesting post and anyone who is interested in the above discussion would enjoy reading it. I don’t really assume that everyone reads everything I post, and I am struggling to keep up with all the coffee (and other) feeds these days!

By: Stephen Leighton

Stephen Leighton — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 01:25:54 +0000

Hi Jim

I just wanted to say I’m not being contrived to your post, I haven’t seen this until I saw your ping back on my post (I am so far behind on my RSS). You make some really good points in here, as well as your readers, but I still believe we can take much of the work that’s been done to make coffee more accessible without introducing the negatives that it has for wine.

I’m just off to feel foolish for a while that yet again you beat me to a post.

By: » Thank you by James Hoffmann

» Thank you by James Hoffmann — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:40:33 +0000

[...] and that probably shows, but what has been truly great is that often 500 words will generate 5,000 words of discussion in the [...]

By: James Hoffmann

James Hoffmann — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:46:11 +0000

Just kidding

Yeah, yeah - too late now. Yes I am a coffee roaster, and we do mail order, but that is a very, very small part of our business because we are focused on trying to lift the wholesale market. On that front I am convinced the current, typical wholesale model is all wrong - I just haven't come up with a better idea yet. Anyway - Seth Godin would have us market directly to those 'otaku'.

By: hugo

hugo — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 22:43:29 +0000

Umm…are you a speciality roaster who does mail order?

Perhaps we should concentrate on where it’s most accessible, on the street in a few great cafes. Coffee, just like wine, is made best by professionals. Trying to get the public to brew excellent coffee will be about as effective as getting them to brew great wine.
History will repeat itself and your market will consist of hippies, geeks and long haired loners, still drinking hogwash but proud of it and capable of talking about it to their brewing friends on forums and blogs for hours…

Just kidding.

By: James Hoffmann

James Hoffmann — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:56:22 +0000

I think we need a strong, clear message and to get behind it and shout it loudly and consistently. (Like we think Starbucks do too...) Perhaps we should start where wine and coffee strongly deviate - influencing the quality home consumption. The benefits of getting people to brew better coffee at home are many - increased consumption being quite obvious but more than that I think it would change expectations about what a coffee brewed out of home should taste like and whether its price matches its value. I liked a bit of Ryan Wilbur's recent post where he says,

Coffee people like to talk up and down about how much coffee is like wine… The problem is you can’t run home and immediately rip open a bag of coffee and enjoy it. It must be brewed. I think 2009 needs to be a year of less throwing around our language (i.e. always talking varietals, processing, cupping, and all kinds of obnoxious descriptors that soar over peoples heads) and way more simply teaching people how to make coffee themselves.

This was one of the many things that got me inspired to start teaching home brewing classes - having done two I feel much more comfortable with what is practical and useful in a class like this. I am still trying to find a better format, timing and price point but that is another story. I plan to keep contributing with home brewing videos, searching out ways to get more out of our kit and to make great coffee without having to spend a fortune in a way that is convenient, yet conistent. I think once people understand the range of flavours available in coffee our potential audience will show itself through inquisitiveness about the hows and whys of great coffee.

By: hugo

hugo — Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:22:23 +0000

Of course the wine model doesn’t work, but parts of it can, parts of it won’t, and if it does it’ll be called a coffee model….
However, it can teach us useful stuff, as can every other ‘model’. The fundamental problem is, how can we sell higher quality coffee when we can’t produce it or more specifically, get it to the final consumer in it’s drinable state? Not a lot of point focusing on sales when the ‘quality’ product we’re so desperate to promote is only available in microscopic quantities to the consumer.
My concern is already manifest in the sale of pretend high quality coffees in supermarkets & ’speciality’ coffee shops which are very ordinary. By the cup it’s usually prepared poorly by the supposed professionals (us). For home consumption it’s usually already stale because it’s preground and worse still, it’s bought by people who have no idea how to store it or brew it. A bit like selling expensive grape juice to the public and expecting them to make their own wine…following instructions on the back of the tin.

Can someone (James?) put forward a suggestion of what this model is going to try and allow coffee to achieve…

By: Learn English Online

Learn English Online — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:55:43 +0000

Anybody has heard about the water model?

By: rob berghmans

rob berghmans — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:42:10 +0000

let’s start working.
what do we need to create a model?
lot’s of information about the bean? This won’t be easy if you see where most the beans come from.
what? year/crop.
variental.
roasting angle and date.
packing.
…. and so, so much more to know.

but indeed, as Tristan said, how do you consume this? you need surely more than only espresso.
hm, let us call this a new prediction for 09 : the search for a model. Step by step we’ll get there.