Comments on: The failings of English Cafes http://www.jimseven.com/2008/11/18/the-failings-of-english-cafes/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-failings-of-english-cafes James Hoffmann's blog. Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:10:57 +0000 hourly 1 By: rick http://www.jimseven.com/2008/11/18/the-failings-of-english-cafes/#comment-97733 rick Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:07:15 +0000 http://www.jimseven.com/?p=589#comment-97733 Bea's comment really hit home for me " To be honest though, I think while some London cafes may be disappointing, I also think sometimes that London customers can be just as disappointing, in expecting and wanting mediocrity." I just moved from Vancouver (a city with its share of bad cafes, but also with many terrific ones) to the interior of British Columbia. Though there are a few neat cafes, many are just carbon copies of the chains. This area has ALOT of coffee, the concentration of cafes even in tiny towns is oddly large, but palatable coffee is nearly impossible to find, and no one seems to be willing to innovate with anything. Mostly they just seem to want to try to copy Starbucks et al. I've just started a blog dedicated to reviewing cafes in the area with mind to giving some kind words to the ones doing great things, and giving the mediocre ones a bit of a kick in the pants. We've got a great food scene here (as well as wine), but the coffee is so far below that standard. Of course, I'm in the backwoods here, and perhaps I'm expecting way to much, whereas your expectations seem perfectly reasonable.... Bea’s comment really hit home for me ” To be honest though, I think while some London cafes may be disappointing, I also think sometimes that London customers can be just as disappointing, in expecting and wanting mediocrity.”

I just moved from Vancouver (a city with its share of bad cafes, but also with many terrific ones) to the interior of British Columbia. Though there are a few neat cafes, many are just carbon copies of the chains. This area has ALOT of coffee, the concentration of cafes even in tiny towns is oddly large, but palatable coffee is nearly impossible to find, and no one seems to be willing to innovate with anything. Mostly they just seem to want to try to copy Starbucks et al. I’ve just started a blog dedicated to reviewing cafes in the area with mind to giving some kind words to the ones doing great things, and giving the mediocre ones a bit of a kick in the pants. We’ve got a great food scene here (as well as wine), but the coffee is so far below that standard.

Of course, I’m in the backwoods here, and perhaps I’m expecting way to much, whereas your expectations seem perfectly reasonable….

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]]> By: Finchey http://www.jimseven.com/2008/11/18/the-failings-of-english-cafes/#comment-90274 Finchey Sat, 29 Nov 2008 00:40:32 +0000 http://www.jimseven.com/?p=589#comment-90274 Good article - it's very close to my business. Thanks a lot. Good article – it’s very close to my business. Thanks a lot.

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]]> By: Bea http://www.jimseven.com/2008/11/18/the-failings-of-english-cafes/#comment-90033 Bea Mon, 24 Nov 2008 23:13:48 +0000 http://www.jimseven.com/?p=589#comment-90033 In my experience, I've had the problem with the identity of my shop, which has morphed into a cafe instead of what it was originally intended to be (a takeaway shop)---because of that the existing layout isn't as efficient as it could be, plus to make it more coffee-maker friendly would have required more extensive plumbing than the budget required. To be honest though, I think while some London cafes may be disappointing, I also think sometimes that London customers can be just as disappointing, in expecting and wanting mediocrity. I think one large difference between NYC and London is while NYC craves the unique and the eccentric for the masses, allowing for some great cafes and food places, the vast majority of Londoners flock to Caffe Neros, EATs, all high street stores and eschew the interesting quirky places, partly on price, and partly on not liking unfamiliar things. Also in defense of some cafe owners, having a business is hard...I come up with 100's of ideas all of the time for the shop but stuff falls to the backburner---for example, changing my front shop's light to a more pleasing yellow hue had been in my head for months---finally got it done last month and wow, you can actually see the food! In my experience, I’ve had the problem with the identity of my shop, which has morphed into a cafe instead of what it was originally intended to be (a takeaway shop)—because of that the existing layout isn’t as efficient as it could be, plus to make it more coffee-maker friendly would have required more extensive plumbing than the budget required. To be honest though, I think while some London cafes may be disappointing, I also think sometimes that London customers can be just as disappointing, in expecting and wanting mediocrity.

I think one large difference between NYC and London is while NYC craves the unique and the eccentric for the masses, allowing for some great cafes and food places, the vast majority of Londoners flock to Caffe Neros, EATs, all high street stores and eschew the interesting quirky places, partly on price, and partly on not liking unfamiliar things.

Also in defense of some cafe owners, having a business is hard…I come up with 100′s of ideas all of the time for the shop but stuff falls to the backburner—for example, changing my front shop’s light to a more pleasing yellow hue had been in my head for months—finally got it done last month and wow, you can actually see the food!

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]]> By: The Onocoffee http://www.jimseven.com/2008/11/18/the-failings-of-english-cafes/#comment-89872 The Onocoffee Sat, 22 Nov 2008 18:35:31 +0000 http://www.jimseven.com/?p=589#comment-89872 While I certainly won't presume to comment on the UK scene, I've found that in the United States the ability for a cafe to deliver is dependent on choice. Numerous persons interested in opening a cafe ask me about the various points of operation, most of which are concerned about the lowest cost everything. Too many operators are focused on getting everything as cheap as possible and have difficulty understanding our approach of purchasing the best ingredients possible, with near disregard for the cost or the length and difficulty of training to high standards. It's not hard to create quality. It just requires that you choose to do so. Once you've chosen the standard you will pursue, it all comes together and your choices become quite simple and clear. Julie touches on a subject but there are many aspects of developing a great cafe environment that don't require a tremendous outlay of cash. James mentions pigeonholing an espresso machine into a nook that makes accessibility and repair less than ideal. Much of what I do as an owner is continually refine and develop our work environment to facilitate speed and efficiency. Placement of machine, refrigeration, storage and display are key, and I'm always fine-tuning and tweaking. New shop owners have the potential to develop an efficient working environment from the outset with very little impact on their actual capital investment. It takes roughly the same amount of money to build a poorly designed space as an efficiently designed one. The latter, however, requires more time and thinking to develop. While I certainly won’t presume to comment on the UK scene, I’ve found that in the United States the ability for a cafe to deliver is dependent on choice. Numerous persons interested in opening a cafe ask me about the various points of operation, most of which are concerned about the lowest cost everything. Too many operators are focused on getting everything as cheap as possible and have difficulty understanding our approach of purchasing the best ingredients possible, with near disregard for the cost or the length and difficulty of training to high standards.

It’s not hard to create quality. It just requires that you choose to do so. Once you’ve chosen the standard you will pursue, it all comes together and your choices become quite simple and clear.

Julie touches on a subject but there are many aspects of developing a great cafe environment that don’t require a tremendous outlay of cash. James mentions pigeonholing an espresso machine into a nook that makes accessibility and repair less than ideal. Much of what I do as an owner is continually refine and develop our work environment to facilitate speed and efficiency. Placement of machine, refrigeration, storage and display are key, and I’m always fine-tuning and tweaking.

New shop owners have the potential to develop an efficient working environment from the outset with very little impact on their actual capital investment. It takes roughly the same amount of money to build a poorly designed space as an efficiently designed one. The latter, however, requires more time and thinking to develop.

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]]> By: Lance http://www.jimseven.com/2008/11/18/the-failings-of-english-cafes/#comment-89844 Lance Sat, 22 Nov 2008 09:56:31 +0000 http://www.jimseven.com/?p=589#comment-89844 I had get in on this debate. I have been selling coffee to English cafes for 10 years and 9 out of 10 sites serve poor coffee mainly due to poor grinder settings and staff turnover. I have been banging on to my customer base about how the basic espresso based drinks are served. Most independent cafe owners have followed the chains with huge bowl like 14oz china cups. This is another american supersize me bastardisation of what cappuccino should be. We are a tea drinking nation. 89% of people in the UK drink instant coffee at home so espresso education in the UK will take many more years. The coffee chains have only one style of offer so why dont independent owners do something different and original. The best example of trying to be different is the little group based in east London called Coffee@. The lampshades are made of paper cups, the sugar trays made of lego, well made coffee with an original menu, shabby chic styling, interested staff who all get a free bike to cycle to work on, milk steamed superbly and at the correct temperature, toilets using recycled rainwater, and paper cups that can be recycled. These sites are busy because the customer base is kept on their toes with an original experience. Location is another issue. Most independent start ups think they need to be on the high st. Leave that to the chains to fight it out over huge rents. Setting up near a university is a sure fired way do well with a quirky cafe. I have not given up on educating my customer base but the penny will never drop for most indenpendent cafe owners. I had get in on this debate. I have been selling coffee to English cafes for 10 years and 9 out of 10 sites serve poor coffee mainly due to poor grinder settings and staff turnover. I have been banging on to my customer base about how the basic espresso based drinks are served. Most independent cafe owners have followed the chains with huge bowl like 14oz china cups. This is another american supersize me bastardisation of what cappuccino should be. We are a tea drinking nation. 89% of people in the UK drink instant coffee at home so espresso education in the UK will take many more years.
The coffee chains have only one style of offer so why dont independent owners do something different and original.
The best example of trying to be different is the little group based in east London called Coffee@. The lampshades are made of paper cups, the sugar trays made of lego, well made coffee with an original menu, shabby chic styling, interested staff who all get a free bike to cycle to work on, milk steamed superbly and at the correct temperature, toilets using recycled rainwater, and paper cups that can be recycled.
These sites are busy because the customer base is kept on their toes with an original experience.
Location is another issue. Most independent start ups think they need to be on the high st. Leave that to the chains to fight it out over huge rents. Setting up near a university is a sure fired way do well with a quirky cafe.
I have not given up on educating my customer base but the penny will never drop for most indenpendent cafe owners.

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]]> By: loma http://www.jimseven.com/2008/11/18/the-failings-of-english-cafes/#comment-89837 loma Sat, 22 Nov 2008 08:14:34 +0000 http://www.jimseven.com/?p=589#comment-89837 yes, i like those crayon drawings too yes, i like those crayon drawings too

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]]> By: Tim Styles http://www.jimseven.com/2008/11/18/the-failings-of-english-cafes/#comment-89731 Tim Styles Fri, 21 Nov 2008 01:13:43 +0000 http://www.jimseven.com/?p=589#comment-89731 Interested to hear more, Gemma.... Whereabouts are you setting up? Interested to hear more, Gemma…. Whereabouts are you setting up?

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]]> By: Gemma http://www.jimseven.com/2008/11/18/the-failings-of-english-cafes/#comment-89724 Gemma Thu, 20 Nov 2008 22:10:16 +0000 http://www.jimseven.com/?p=589#comment-89724 I'm currently in the process of setting up shop in Central London. As costs are spiralling out of control I'm continually finding I have to cut back on little ideas which would have given it the individual touch. However the details for me is the most important thing, especially in today's market - so while I can't do everything I had hoped (of course) I still plan on making it as unique as possible with the budget I have, and it will be a work in progress. What I think however is more memorable than all these little things, will always be the staff - and as long as I invest in the right staff the personality of the shop should shine. I’m currently in the process of setting up shop in Central London. As costs are spiralling out of control I’m continually finding I have to cut back on little ideas which would have given it the individual touch. However the details for me is the most important thing, especially in today’s market – so while I can’t do everything I had hoped (of course) I still plan on making it as unique as possible with the budget I have, and it will be a work in progress.

What I think however is more memorable than all these little things, will always be the staff – and as long as I invest in the right staff the personality of the shop should shine.

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]]> By: Dale http://www.jimseven.com/2008/11/18/the-failings-of-english-cafes/#comment-89721 Dale Thu, 20 Nov 2008 20:03:31 +0000 http://www.jimseven.com/?p=589#comment-89721 great rant... i don't however like the idea of copying the more psychological commercial strategies of big business. What i really want a food display to do is display great food not sell it... i want a cafe that really cares about it's coffee to give equal attention to the sourcing, prep and pricing etc of its food offer then educate its staff and take pride in their ability to sell it in a friendly, honest manner... good coffee and good food will sell themselves... i hope maybe that's why I'm not running a successful (or otherwise) business :( great rant…

i don’t however like the idea of copying the more psychological commercial strategies of big business. What i really want a food display to do is display great food not sell it…

i want a cafe that really cares about it’s coffee to give equal attention to the sourcing, prep and pricing etc of its food offer then educate its staff and take pride in their ability to sell it in a friendly, honest manner… good coffee and good food will sell themselves… i hope

maybe that’s why I’m not running a successful (or otherwise) business :(

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]]> By: Ed Whitman http://www.jimseven.com/2008/11/18/the-failings-of-english-cafes/#comment-89715 Ed Whitman Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:55:18 +0000 http://www.jimseven.com/?p=589#comment-89715 Great topic. Que lines are effective if the customer knows what they want, modeled after fast food chains. If you stop and ask a question, you hold up the line and customers get irritated. I love the standup counters of Italian bars where you can chat with the barista or your neighbor. Coffee brewing should be theatrical so put those machines out there where customers can seem them and the skills of the barista. Great topic. Que lines are effective if the customer knows what they want, modeled after fast food chains. If you stop and ask a question, you hold up the line and customers get irritated. I love the standup counters of Italian bars where you can chat with the barista or your neighbor. Coffee brewing should be theatrical so put those machines out there where customers can seem them and the skills of the barista.

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